I had a thought today. I’ve had many (but I’ll come back to that). The thought in question today was that marketing has ruined my life.

Truth is, I struggle with focus. And every day, new ideas – in the form of messages from marketing men (and women, no doubt) – flash before me and claim their market share of my consciousness.

So infiltrated have I become by the smooth talk, heavenly hype and downright deception, that my life looks like a series of unfinished, though well-intentioned projects - discovered with awe, conceived with passion and surpassed by a better idea a few days, months or occasionally years later.

Now of course, any decent life coach would take me to task right here. Not only on my ‘victim’ status (marketing ruined my life and not me?), but also my inability to filter my perception and save my consciousness for things of my own choosing, benefit and delight.

But worse still, I consider myself a marketing man – so what’s to be done?

Well, it seems – as is often the case – old Napoleon has the answer:

“Desire is the starting point of all achievement, not a hope, not a wish, but a keen pulsating desire which transcends everything.” — Napoleon Hill

Thanks Mr Hill. It comes back to the success secrets of the excellent among us. The keys to great achievement are: a magnificent obsession, underwritten with integrity and self-discipline. Now, more than ever, any of us with a sense of mission - as well as an innocent curiousity - needs to be very careful about the potentially overwhelming and seriously insidious effects of marketing.

For me, it’s time to tidy up, get focussed, but most of all - not get distracted. Care to join me?

Originally a post at: www.hedolistic.com

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Hi Carl,
Oh you know us life coaches so well and being a marketing man you know just how clever you folks are at infiltrating people's minds. Great to hear you are about to tidy up and focus, have fun with that, personally I love using the power of the imagination to get me going at getting going.

S

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"Chase two hares and you will catch none" - Old tibetan saying

You are totally right Carl, a better idea comes along and takes over. The key to success (according to Joe Vitale) is to know what you want and get CLEAR about it.

The question is this: Do you get excited by the product/service itself or is the real motivation that fact that it is the key to unlocking your desired lifestyle? Providing new health benefits whilst making you enough money to pursue more writing and other avenues? Who knows!

Clever marketing targets peoples secondary gains. In this case the chance to live the free liberated hedolistic lifestyle. The primary gain being; promoting good health and improving lives.

So be aware! We get bombarded all the time. I'll give you a simple example.

eg. Tesco - Every Little Helps
Every - every what? every who?
Little - how little? little what?
Helps - helps who? helps how? Helps when?

Its a phrase that somehow makes sense to everyone, because we inadvertantly fill in the gaps ourselves.

NOW.... we can learn from this and use it promote OUR businesses i.e. "giving you the best","servicing your needs","making the right choice" and so and so forth.

If we can succumb to clever marketing then surely other people will as well? Use it and benefit and saitisfy those secondary gains, we all have them!

Rant over..

Last edited: 16-11-2006 10:44:14 AM

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b******ks

Marketing is in no way responsible for ruining anyone's life.

I am the CEO of a marketing company that deals with LOHAS [lifestyles of health and sustainability] businesses - those that, broadly speaking, are seeking to 'make the world a better place'.

the idea that marketing is somehow responsible for people's purchasing decisions denies a fundamental human driver - the desire for differentiation or difference

let's face it - so much of what holistically minded people focus on is as much a reaction against the so-called mainstream, as it is a step towards what actually feels good and right and true.

all that effective marketing does is pick up on this need to be different and suggest that this product or service will assist in meeting that need.

is it true?

perhaps for some

just as guns don't kill people, marketing simply makes a statement or asks a question - if one is so incapable of determining one's own needs, and determining the difference between a genuine need and a wanton desire, then there is no point blaming the marketers

after all, basic economics tells us where there is a demand there will inevitably follow supply

the basic human desire to be different - the demand to be different - is, ultimately, what drives the marketing machine.

if we were all happy to wear the same clothes, drive the same cars, eat the same foods and listen to the same music, marketing would have no function whatsoever

it's our obsession with individuality, not consumer products, that gives the marketers something to do

and ultimately, it is this obsession with individuality that drives capitalism - otherwise we would have state owned factories pumping out sameness and saving [potentially] trillions of dollars that could [potentially] be put to use in other areas

[of course, capitalism is leading the charge to a new world through providing solutions to many of the problems of the modern world - problems that are not so much the province of capitalism as they are the province of industry - look at China's environmental record if you think that capitalism alone is responsible for messing things up]

as a voice from the inside i am inclined, generally, to agree with Hasif. Marketing can be used to effect a demand for 'ethical' products and services. Ultimately, however, such ethics must ultimately come second to a broader ethical consideration.

if we are interested in minimising waste, surely the desire to be different must fall away.

otherwise, perhaps it's time we made peace with our own hypocrisy and simply got on with loving as best we know how in every given moment

to quote Mikhail Gorbachev:

"the market is not an invention of capitalism, it is an invention of civilisation. it has existed for centuries"

the soapbox is now vacant

Last edited: 18-11-2006 01:23:31 PM

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bxxxxxks is a wee bit on the strong side .Beware of such sweeping statements my friend....else you fall into the very trap you accuse others.

I do agree that amongst some groups there is a tendency to focus just on the negative of production / marketing whatever. But that is however what as Idealist s we all have a tendency to do.

I think Carl is on the whole quite balanced in his view as he acknowledges the reality of the market.... he just warns against the pitfalls which can consume us.

As much as there is a natural tendency for difference it is also a quality that is engineerered.We only have to look at the fashion industry where this is done on a yearly basis.

As much as the consumer impacts the market the market manipulates the consumer.Psychologists have not been employed in marketing research for no reason!

What is more evident today in marketing is the neccesity to sell commodities in huge amounts as production through competition has lead to the need to mass produce on a scale unheard of in history......we all know .... 'buy one get one free'.

Also we are a growing population and each and everyone of us needs to find our niche within the market place .I dont think it is cynical to say that predictably a percentage of what goes on will be selling you something you dont really need wether it be a commodity.....a sevice .......a concept....or whatever....Whether with innocent intentions or not.

It is about their gain not yours

If we're honest and look in our own lives ...we know them for what they are .
They will come ...hang around and feed for a while...and go.
To say nothing of the levels of debt some people are left in.

Man is born free but all about is in chains....Rousseau.

Anyone want an exercise bike...or two?

Last edited: 20-11-2006 10:52:12 AM

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John,

I find your comments to be so spot on ... and I also understand what you're saying, Carl! Marketing is my weakness, I admit, and marketing in general bothers me. That's just not my gift, really.

Alas, there are so many things about marketing that I just can't tolerate or get behind -- especially what I've seen in America (and now the UK has become so much like America) with all the hype and nonsense!

Here's an example: Something that irks me to no end is this obsession with $x.99/£x.99 nonsense in pricing! I don't charge $74.99 for a half-hour's session, no! I charge $75 -- a clear, honest and straightforward fee. WHY endeavour to deceive people into thinking they're paying less than they actually are -- all over a flipping PENNY!?!? To me, this undermines ones intelligence and simply translates to duping and hoodwinking someone.

In my way of thinking, if a product or service is truly of quality and worthwhile, one can be honest about it and need not resort to hype. Hype, to me, means bending the truth and exaggerating things -- all of which I find totally unnecessary. Generally, marketing standards are so centred in lies and deceit ... that I tend to want to run the other way. I'm not keen on the lies but rather, being creative, honest and genuine -- offering a good product and service with integrity is all that is needed.

I do not have a telly and will also block adverts from popping up on my browser, because I cannot take the invasiveness that people are deluged with constantly by such advertisers.

I'm not aggressive or pushy; nor do I bend the truth. I've got products and services to offer that I truly believe in and they speak for themselves -- without resorting to hype. I choose to be sincere in my work and the way I represent myself and my services ... but that's just me...

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So kind Juliet.....

.....Till another day...........Woof Woof

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i rest my case

both responses to what i have stated have completely missed the point

a personal dissatisfaction with marketing, as in the case of the Rev Juliet, can be expressed through individual choice [not watching TV, blocking pop-ups etc]

Choosing not to engage with marketing, or specific marketing practises, is a decision you are entitled to make, and nobody would seek to take that choice away from you.

ultimately, however, your decision NOT to engage with marketing is as a direct result of marketing - ergo, marketing is still driving your decision [or lack thereof].

And let me ask you this:

If putting a 74.99 tag on something that you genuinely believe is going to be of benefit to people assists you in getting more of that product or service to the end user - the one you genuinely believe will benefit from your product or sevice - than using a 75 price point, how committed are you to being of service to the people you are committed to serving?

Yes, perception IS nine tenths of the law - and that's kind of the point, isn't it?

You cannot influence another person's perception - rightly or wrongly - unless you can get inside their head [which, despite any protestations and urban myths to the contrary, marketers do not do - they may seek to understand the drivers of a particular consumer group, they may tailor their communications in order to be most effective at selling their product, but is this in any way different from anyone selling anything - whether it's a new idea, a religion, subscription to a charitable cause, choosing one item over another on menu?].

What someone percieves about the value of your product or service is directly relational to virtually infinite factors over which you have no control, and absolutely no influence.

Further, to charge 74.99 for an hours consultation would, in fact, be counter-productive - it's difficult to bill appropriately, and it cheapens your services by making them look like something you can buy off the shelf at the grocers.

Subsequently, your 75.00 pricing is as much a marketing position as any - and from where i sit, a strategically sound and effective one

in regards to the comments re difference, the desire for difference arises first in the individual - no desire for difference, no desire to be different - the fashion industry may well play upon the desire for difference, but it does not manufacture it

as for selling large numbers of commodities, economies of scale achieved through increased production actually REDUCE waste, not increase it - there is a point at which production will also cease to be optimal, and that is generally the point at which an ethical business would consider scaling back

and if it's about selling us something we don;t really need - what do we really need other than food, shelter, clothing and love?

as i said, these needs can be met simply and easily - and relatively inexpensively - the communists tried this for years, but have generally failed miserably to achieve the type of utopia that has been suggested is possible due to one simple oversight - regardless of the common good, people do not want to appear to be the same as everybody else - and difference will always creep in, and there will be those who will seek to meet that desire for difference [whether from a commercial or altruistic perspective is not particularly important]

Carl's issue, as i see it, is viewing that an 'incomplete' project is necessarily of low value. Is this true? does the completion of a task necessarily equate with success?
Do you go through with marriage once you;ve become engaged even if you realise that you are not interested in marrying the person you're engaged too? i think not.

i could rave about this topic endlessly - and it's probably worth noting that i do agree that a great deal of marketing is of low value - generally because i consider that the product or service being marketed is of low value

i am interested in this topic, particularly within this market, because it is where i live and breathe - and i see far too many people blaming marketing for their own inability to exercise self control

if we lay the blame at the feet of the manufacturers and the marketers, however, instead of accepting full responsibility for our purchasing decisions, we miss the opportunity to make use of one of the greatest gifts nature has endowed us with - intelligence

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Nouvon, I think it might be you that missed the point...........have you not heard of 'subliminal advertising?'
( see new post )

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All I really have to say about marketing is echoed by what the late, great Bill Hicks said about it years ago:

"By the way if anyone here is in advertising or marketing... kill yourself. No, no, no, it's just a little thought. I'm just trying to plant seeds. Maybe one day, they'll take root - I don't know. You try, you do what you can. Kill yourself. Seriously though, if you are, do. Aaah, no really, there's no rationalisation for what you do and you are Satan's little helpers, Okay - kill yourself - seriously. You are the ruiner of all things good, seriously. No, this is not a joke, you're going, "there's going to be a joke coming," there's no joke coming. You are Satan's spawn filling the world with bile and garbage. Kill yourself. It's the only way to save your soul."

Marketing is the mouth of the biggest life lie: the one that tells us that our lives cannot be complete without this or that. And so we listen, and we jump endlessly and blindly around from one thing to another. We need to stop listening to these morons that clammer for our attention, and start listening to ourselves. Bollocks to what they think we want - what do we actually want? And what can we just as easily do without? What's important in our lives, and what's just excess redundant garbage? Desire may be the starting point of all achievement, but we need to be clear that it's our own desire that we are serving, and not someone else's.

Last edited: 22-11-2006 07:06:26 PM

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Spot on Jase - brilliantly put. Thank you.

PS I'm involved with a fantastic new health product. We should talk...

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Nuovon.....I ve got a funny feeling that whatever anyone says contrary to your view....your answer would be .....see you just dont get it !

Its so glaringly obvious where the balance of this debate is.....and you aint got it .

Possibly a case of .....cant see the wood for the trees?

I rest my case.


Ps..........Communism as in the Marxist usage has never existed ...Whatever anybody tells you to the contrary

......hows that for an absolutist statement?

Last edited: 22-11-2006 11:37:11 PM

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As much as I love Bill Hicks, and found that particular diatribe really funny, I don't actually agree with it.

Marketing is an essential part of business. Without it, few businesses would or could exist. I think a lot of people here are perhaps confusing marketing with advertising, which aren't really the same thing. Advertising is part of marketing, but marketing encompasses so much more. Every single thing you to do promote your business, whether advertising, or just handing out a business card, is marketing.

Holistic Local is involved with a lot of marketing. Does that mean that me and you should both kill ourselves, Jason?

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Of course marketing didn't ruin my life. My life is beautiful, albeit a little strangely designed and innovated over the years in an unsual, sometimes painful, but ultimately for the good.

I am responsible for it and gladly accept the challenge and the glory!

There are times when I feel 'incomplete' (as I think Jason is referring to). At those times, 'the spirit of marketing' can slip in and work its magic. That's still my responsibility.

I've made a bit of a living from marketing type work and I'm grateful for it.

There are a million and one things that can 'ruin' your life - be careful out there! In the end it's down to you. What are you going to do about it?!

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Exactly ....its not a case of rejecting it .but enhancing it for the better good......

.....which Im sure you boys are about.

Honest John.......@ better- buys-are- us

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Bill wasn't ranting against businesses employing marketing and advertising in general, but rather against those people who make a living solely through the excessive use of psychological marketing and advertising techniques. I find this behavior and mindset quite abhorrent also, and an obvious sign that capitalism has gone way too far. The web is full of people trying to sell you products that they claim will change your life, but I'll bet hardly any of those come close to living up to the hype. To my mind, if your product is good and valuable, it'll find its market with a minimum of exposure. The rest of Bill's rant exposes the kind of "marketing mentality" that he finds so despicable:

I know all the marketing people are going, "he's doing a joke..." There's no joke here whatsoever. Suck a tail-pipe, hang yourself, borrow a gun from a friend - I don't care how you do it. Rid the world of your evil machinations. I know what all the marketing people are thinking right now too, "Oh, you know what Bill's doing, he's going for that anti-marketing dollar. That's a good market, he's very smart." Oh man, I am not doing that. You evil scumbags! "Ooh, you know what Bill's doing now, he's going for the righteous indignation dollar. That's a big dollar. A lot of people are feeling that indignation. We've done research - huge market. He's doing a good thing." Godammit, I'm not doing that, you scum-bags! Quit putting a goddamn dollar sign on everything on this planet! "Ooh, the anger dollar. Huge. Huge in times of recession. Giant market, Bill's very bright to do that." God, I'm just caught in a web! "Ooh the trapped dollar, big dollar, huge dollar. Good market - look at our research. We see that many people feel trapped. If we play to that and then separate them into the trapped dollar..." How do you live like that? And I bet you sleep like babies at night, don't you?

Last edited: 23-11-2006 07:34:26 PM

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Well your right jason , but the paradox is that it has to go ' too far' for it to make a

transformation into its opposite........Its a bit of a drag but we as individuals don't

control it. History affords us opportunities only' in a world not of our

choosing..........just make the most ..........and in the meantime dont break your

balls!...................cos then your no good to man or beast.


Done that ......and bought the T shirt..........lesson learnt

Last edited: 23-11-2006 11:19:52 PM

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Ps........and dont expect the outcome to be what you really want either

Last edited: 23-11-2006 11:21:01 PM

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WOW! interesting to see what happens when a strong dissenting opinion is expressed.

john, i have no concern with conflicting opinions, and consider i have much to learn. i'm willing to learn from new experience and new ideas, but not from ones that i have ruthlessly investigated and found wanting. this diatribe about marketing started in the sixties counter-culture and while the faces may have changed, the dogma is still the same.

It doesn't concern me where the balance of the debate lies - as Gandhi said "error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody will see it"

Andy's point is salient - should every not for profit, NGO and charity, should every company, organisation and individual that is striving to make the world a better, safer, saner, more sustainable, more loving place to live pack up and cease operations because they use marketing to get their message out?

What would be the net loss?

Perhaps holisticlocal should shut down, rather than receive revenue from google adwords, rather than engage in search engine marketing, rather than market to its current members by email?

Perhaps Andy should put a gun to his head and pull the trigger.

Bill Hicks may be many things, but a man for the moment he is not. Marketing is quite simply a matter of effectively communicating a message. Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela, Gandhi, Mother Teresa, the Dalai Lama all understand/ understood marketing and utilise[d] it ongoingly in order to effect change.

and what would have happened if instead of doing so they put a bullet in their heads?

your comments re communism clearly support the statement that the communists have generally failed miserably to achieve the type of utopia that has been suggested is possible. So thank you for that.

to misquote carl from another post, "marketing is here. Like a gun, or money it can be used 'positively' or 'negatively'".

what we do with our communications, how we deliver them, and how we receive them from others speaks only to our own internal state of being - and says nothing about the world 'out there'.

in fact, if we all act according to the great new age aphorisms we are so fond of quoting, we will all find it very hard to lay blame.

What brings us together at HL, presumably, is a shared interest in living holisticly - perhaps instead of viewing a dissenting opinion as cause for attack, we could look at it as an opportunity to learn.

believe it or not, we're actually all united by a shared love - i just happen to be [according to Bill Hicks] Satan's spawn filling the world with bile and garbage..

Share the love, i say. A righteous man does not become more right simply because he shouts louder than all the others.

Cameron

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Having spent 30 years in marketing in Australia, I have a question to you all, Please supply YOUR definition of MARKETING.

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